Fox News’ Shepard Smith Drops F-Bomb in Unhinged Rant Against Torture
By: NCViking
The oft liberal-minded Shepard Smith of Fox News came absolutely unhinged about America and torture in a segment, screaming while pounding the desk: “We are America! I don’t give a rat’s a** if it helps! We are America! We don’t f***ing torture!”
WARNING: This is an un-bleeped R-rated video of the rant.
I tend to agree with Shep in his rant but not so much in its context. I do feel it is wrong to torture and that it is a violation of my Conservative principles. We cannot as a nation hold any principled high ground if we act like the thugs we are fighting. In addition, the United States should not violate another’s Life, Liberty and Property to protect our own. That being said, we should carefully consider whether or not we did indeed torture or just employ some harsh and effective interrogation techniques. This is the question.
Here is an excellent article from the Wall Street Journal exploring this question through an investigation of the released memos. I am posting the full article here because it is quite informative.
The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from “green lighting” torture — or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees — the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation.
Interrogations were to be “continuously monitored” and “the interrogation team will stop the use of particular techniques or the interrogation altogether if the detainee’s medical or psychological conditions indicates that the detainee might suffer significant physical or mental harm.”
An Aug. 1, 2002, memo describes the practice of “walling” — recently revealed in a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which suggested that detainees wore a “collar” used to “forcefully bang the head and body against the wall” before and during interrogation. In fact, detainees were placed with their backs to a “flexible false wall,” designed to avoid inflicting painful injury. Their shoulder blades — not head — were the point of contact, and the “collar” was used not to give additional force to a blow, but further to protect the neck.
The memo says the point was to inflict psychological uncertainty, not physical pain: “the idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is and that will be far worse than any injury that might result from the action.”
Shackling and confinement in a small space (generally used to create discomfort and muscle fatigue) were also part of the CIA program, but they were subject to stringent time and manner limitations. Abu Zubaydah (a top bin Laden lieutenant) had a fear of insects. He was, therefore, to be put in a “cramped confinement box” and told a stinging insect would be put in the box with him. In fact, the CIA proposed to use a harmless caterpillar. Confinement was limited to two hours.
The memos are also revealing about the practice of “waterboarding,” about which there has been so much speculative rage from the program’s opponents. The practice, used on only three individuals, involved covering the nose and mouth with a cloth and pouring water over the cloth to create a drowning sensation.
This technique could be used for up to 40 seconds — although the CIA orally informed Justice Department lawyers that it would likely not be used for more than 20 seconds at a time. Unlike the exaggerated claims of so many Bush critics, the memos make clear that water was not actually expected to enter the detainee’s lungs, and that measures were put in place to prevent complications if this did happen and to ensure that the individual did not develop respiratory distress.
All of these interrogation methods have been adapted from the U.S. military’s own Survival Evasion Resistance Escape (or SERE) training program, and have been used for years on thousands of American service members with the full knowledge of Congress. This has created a large body of information about the effect of these techniques, on which the CIA was able to draw in assessing the likely impact on the detainees and ensuring that no severe pain or long term psychological impact would result.
The actual intelligence benefits of the CIA program are also detailed in these memos. The CIA believed, evidently with good reason, that the enhanced interrogation program had indeed produced actionable intelligence about al Qaeda’s plans. First among the resulting successes was the prevention of a “second wave” of al Qaeda attacks, to be carried out by an “east Asian” affiliate, which would have involved the crashing of another airplane into a building in Los Angeles.
The interrogation techniques described in these memos are indisputably harsh, but they fall well short of “torture.” They were developed and deployed at a time of supreme peril, as a means of preventing future attacks on innocent civilians both in the U.S. and abroad.
The dedicated public servants at the CIA and Justice Department — who even the Obama administration has concluded should not be prosecuted — clearly cared intensely about staying within the law as well as protecting the American homeland. These memos suggest that they achieved both goals in a manner fully consistent with American values.
Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, who served in the Justice Department under George H.W. Bush, were U.S. delegates to the U.N. Subcommission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights.
The fact that this whole issue is being debated is a good reflection on our country. It is a debate that needs to focus on what is reasonable or in the middle. It is very clear on the ends, but highly subjective in the middle. On one end, simply talking with a detainee without the suspect feeling any sense of peril for his/her silence or actions is not enough. On the other, brutalizing the individual a la Saddam Hussein is too much. Many Americans are hung up on the ends of this debate, and not concentrating on the middle where circumstances, perspective and reason must be considered.
The memos show that we care deeply for human rights and go to great lengths to protect them. It also shows we are not afraid to get tough on those trying to harm us, within reason. Reason is the key word here. As the WSJ rightly points out many of these effective techniques I believe were quite harsh but fall well short of torture. I also believe the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay was a reasonable solution as well as the designation of enemy combatants. How else do we deal with the non-uniformed, declared soldiers we are picking up on the battle field? This threat is unprecedented. If you believe as I do that this is not just a law enforcement issue but a war, Gitmo detention and military tribunals are reasonable given the nature of the threat we are facing. An Obama investigation into the facility has revealed that it is in compliance with the Geneva Convention and The Red Cross has had ample access to the facility and prisoners for monitoring purposes. Also, Obama’s reluctance to shut it down immediately proves merit to its existence and effectiveness. This is reasonable and shows a concerted effort to avoid sliding down a slippery slope.
Have bad things happened in the War on Terror Overseas Contingency Operations? Maybe, but this is not indicative of the purpose for Gitmo or the harsh interrogation techniques used to protect America. Any torture or violation of another’s human rights to protect our own should not be tolerated. But let’s also be clear on what actually constitutes torture and what does not. Debating this middle area is good for America and righteous. Dishonesty, demonization, demagoguery, attacks and misinformation is not.
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Agreed on what is said. We do not torture, nor have we ever during the War on Terror. Did some rogue solider or another cross the line at one time or another? Sure, without a doubt. The military prosecuted many of those involved at Abu Ghraib.
Enhanced interrogation techniques WORK! That has been proven. We water-boarded three guys and all provided excellent information and actionable intelligence. None were harmed. I think it was Marc Thiessen who said that the Al Qaeda are instructed to hold out as long as they can, but when they can not handle the interrogation any more, they give in. This has something to do with their religious instruction. The job of the interrogator is to determine what non-tortuous, but effective technique can be used to get the al Qaeda guy to the breaking point where he will spill his guts.
With the release of the memos, Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups now knows that we know this, and our current interrogation techniques.
One must congratulate President Obama for overriding his intelligence experts and agreeing with his AG that this “overseas contingency operation” is just a law enforcement effort, and we need not worry about the long term repercussions. We should feel blessed that this man has the wisdom to put all of our lives on the line over a principle that says that putting a non-harmful caterpillar in a box with an irrationally scared terrorist is just as bad as a scumbag, beheading madman in the middle east.
I don’t want to be the man who has to explain to the hundreds of mothers that their child died because we were to principled to slap a terrorist, or we were to American to cause no harm to a man by waterboarding them.
Yes, we are so much better than that.
I respectfully disagree with anyone who says torture should not be in our intelligence gathering repertoire.
IN fact REAL torture should be implemented when psychological methods fail. These might include; burning, cutting, skinning alive, racking, thumbscrews, the removal of fingers, toes, eyes, etc. Just bear in mind that in some cases the subject may say anything just get out of pain….so the quality of intelligence gleaned from these methods may be tainted. And, perhaps videotaping these events could prove valuable when shown to future recipients. In all of these cases it might be messy, so as for me, I’d rather be waterboarding.
I am a US Army veteran and former interrogator. What bothers me about all of this is the continued protests of the “Human Intelligence Collection” School. The lefties and any others upset about these memos etc. all seem to think the CIA and the military work together. In fact, we do not and never have. Torture is not taught at this school, never has and never will be. I can not speak for the CIA or what they do, but I want people to know that US Army interrogators were not involved in waterboarding or any of these “enhanced” techniques. We are constantly monitored and must get approval from our chain of command for everything we do.
On another note, I agree that we must be able to define exactly what torture is. Currently, it is so ambiguous, many people claim that shackling prisoners or leaving the lights on all night is torture. Please! It’s called security! Most these detainees threaten their interrogators, guards etc. on a daily basis and those threats must be taken seriously. I would also like to know what is meant when people refer to “sleep deprivation” as torture. What do they consider to be “sleep deprivation”? Geneva Conventions and the Law of Land Warfare specifically state that prisoners are entitled to 8 hours of sleep within a 24 hour period and only 4 hours of that must be consecutive. If I allowed a prisoner his 4 hours of consecutive sleep and then only let him sleep in 15 minute increments between 30 minutes of questioning, I am well within the law. That is not torture.
Sigh. I have said all of this before, but still get yelled at and accused of torture. I don’t expect it to be any different this time and I served in the military under Clinton. The rules for military “Human Intelligence Collectors” has not changed. We still abide by the law. The only thing different is a new manual, which still has all of the same techniques and info as before, but it mentions that we must get special permission before we use some of our standard, and very legal techniques. It’s also public info and can be found on the internet. Don’t believe me? Look it up: FM 2-22.3.
Airborne Vet: Torture is well defined especially when it comes to water boarding. Google search previous prosecutions and convictions of people who water boarded from law enforcement officers, military personnel and even Japanese soldiers who were executed (by hanging) for water boarding our POWs. It is clearly defined under not only our law, but the Geneva convention as well. The principal interrogator who worked on KSM and the others wrote an op/ed piece for the NYTs the other day clearly defining that traditional methods gained valuable intel 6 months prior to instituting illegal torture tactics and that the illegal torture tactics were completely useless and ineffective and used under protest by the interrogators themselves. You may also wish to Google the memos written by the top 4 Judge Advocate Generals from all 4 branches of the military (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force) that not only continuously pointed out how these tactics were immoral, but continuously pointed out to the Bush Administration that these tactics were illegal.
Iran currently has 2 citizens of our country that have not been subjected to any “enhanced” tactics. North Korea currently has 2 citizens of our country that also are not being subjected to “enhanced” tactics. It’s a freakin sad state of affairs when countries like Iran and North Korea can honor the Geneva Convention and show more civility than we do. Quite pathetic and embarrassing.
Harry Chase…you need help before you become a serial killer (if you’re not one already).
WC Windbag: “The military prosecuted many of those involved at Abu Ghraib” and this is what is the greatest pisser of them all!!! We now see Bush Administration officials, Republicans and Right Wing pundits defending viciously illegal torture methods as being effective and necessary that they were too sleazy yellow cowards to defend back then. They were too sleazy yellow cowards to defend these “effective and necessary” tactics back then when these soldiers were having their military careers and lives ruined beyond repair for what we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt thanks to these memos…they were simply following orders. These sleazy Bush Administration officials and pundits can defend now what they didn’t have the balls to defend then when these US soldiers were dishonorably discharged, court marshaled, and imprisoned for serving their country and following orders. These soldiers and a decorated Brig General had their lives and careers destroyed being labeled “bad apples” because these chicken-s##t cowards couldn’t stand up and defend these soldiers for doing what these cowards can defend now. Airborne vet…I can’t see how this doesn’t disgust you as it does me.
This wave isn’t going away anytime soon. Holder was presented with a petition with 250,000 signatures demanding prosecutions and NOT some 55 gallon drum of BS commission like the 9/11 commission. Many more signatures are being added by the minute. Mass emails being sent to Representatives and Senators. Laws were broke and people need to be held accountable and a clear message needs to be sent to any future political candidates of any party: You cannot hide behind executive privilege forever and there ARE consequences for your actions.
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